Other websites may be charging a handsome amount for the silicone sleeve because, without the sleeve, any penis enlargement device is useless. Anti-Turtle Cell Elongation Sleeve . Or fastest delivery Thu, Nov 2. CALL: +61 0455 998 281. 125" meg. CALL: +61 0455 998 281. A Custom Chastity Device for Every Man. The Setup: Habitat, Tank, and Water Supply. Advantages of Phalogenic Traction Wrapping Easy learn, easy to do. Any tips?January, 2023. An excessive amount of force must be applied using an anti-turtling device. Matters of Size is a reputable company with many years in the PE game. 5 13 13. com. Whether or not a player turtles depends on certain factors, such as the stage of the game, and the civilization's bonuses. Medical grade silicon is the best! You won’t encounter and skin irritations or rash. . Thanks. Excellent ! Extraordinaire ! Joined Apr 19, 2008 Messages 33,205 Reaction score 1,601 Points 133 Website Mar 23, 2022SiliSleev2 - Soft Anti-Turtling Silicone Penis Sleeves SILICONE PENIS SLEEVES AND CAPSThe SiliSleev anti-turtling penis sleeve keeps your penis stretched all-day comfortably in stealth to permanently increase your penis size. Many one-design classes require some provisions for mast flotation to help prevent turtling. Same reason you lose combat if you take too long, its an anti-turtling mechanic designed to force you out onto the field of battle and not to just utterly ignore the entire mechanic. Reply [deleted]. Like the chaos they could bring and seems like a neat potential anti-turtling thing but they do look kinda ugly on the map and spawn constantly. It is a fallacious argument, actually, your penis is not going to become shorter because it is in a shorter state for a while; sometimes it is better to leave it in that state, because it needs to recover and keeping on pushing is. Silicone ads sleeve or anti-turtle sleeve. International delivery of items may be subject to customs processing and additional charges. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. 32 Jersey Road, 10173 28271, Bayswater Victoria 3153, Australia. But the stealth for men seemed a little more durable. Gears Tactics is something of an enigma in the franchise it belongs to. What anti siege units do the Incas have, as one of the main gripes I had with the Aztecs is how bad their Arrow Knights are. I'm just asking which sleeve to get. There are several way to use AutoXleeve including mild progressive force enlargement system, supplemental or combination to other traction device routine and use as an Anti-turtle device. CryptoMale Penis Extender Stretcher Vac Hanger Anti-Turtling 6" Silicone Sleeve 3/4" $6. to acomplish that. Yes I gained almost an inch by hanging 2. #1. Better still, “when worn daily it continually trains your anatomy to remain fully extended” with. If the sheath is too long it can also contribute to slippage. Anti-Turtling Sleeves - "What are they and what's their use?" Question. There are numerous comfortable materials that can be used as wraps such as self-adhesive bandages, or anything with an elastic property. 32 Jersey Road, 10173 28271, Bayswater Victoria 3153, Australia. Decided to try them out since Innerwear has been my go to for anti-turtling. The anti-pullout has a textured pattern on the inside of the tabs which the skin molds to over time – the longer the device is worn, the more secure it becomes. Can be the result of gardening accidents, but most commonly caused by eating too much bread, often. I just snugly wrap the spandex around my stretched flaccid and tape it around each end with scotch tape. ABN 17 643 026 831. Mar23rd09 8. Yes I gained almost an inch by hanging 2. Penis sleeves also eliminate fluid retention with penis pumps. 5 MEG 11. Company of Heroes 1 (never really got into 2 so I don't know if it applies as much to it) is a rare kind of RTS that has both turtling and anti-turtling measures, since it allows you to build field fortifications, machine guns and slow big guns are a big deal, and it has lots of options to utilize static emplacements (British specialize in it. Will try that soon. Typically, expensive materials perform well and comfortable to use. . I should have prefaced this thread by stating that I am currently in my 4th month of using the quick extender pro, and am hoping by using a sleeve, that I can cement any gains, plus train my penis not to turtle. The anti turtle sleeve is said to condition the penis to stay in an elongated flaccid state permanently and I was wondering if that really works. There are a number of different hangers available with the most popular being the LG hanger. Male Penis Extender Stretcher Vac Hanger Anti-Turtling 6" Silicone Sleeve 3/4" $6. They are merely there for support as anti-turtling devices after an extending/hanging session or manual PE session. Other websites may be charging a handsome amount for the silicone sleeve because, without the sleeve, any penis enlargement device is useless. -Benefits of wearing Anti-turtle sleeves? There are some really great long-term advantages to using Silicone sleeves in your PE routine. Building defenses costs less than creating units to defense the base, but the defenses cannot be moved to different location so artillery units, which outrange defenses, are deadly against them. Which for many may be more than you need however you can cut the sleeve at a size that best suits you. 28 inch). Many people may find this to be the perfect fit Sizes 3/4" (19mm) Wide x 4" (100mm) Long 1" (25mm) Wide x 4. They can double down as anti turtling devices, paired with your hanging sessions or even as an ADS. Works like a charm and doesn’t hurt. Long as you aren't 100% turtling, they don't spawn. It comes at a standard size of 10 inches in length. 2. 8" Short term goal: 7" / 6" Long term goal: 8" / 6. CryptoMarkSF. As for runs where I’ve just taken a beating in certain chapters, the map before CF endgame is super rough. The Innerwear is a male-enhancement underwear and anti-turtling device. 01-05-2023 05:15 AM. There is a very simple fix: attach a victory timer to holding all the. On my Wayfarer I bought an inflatable bag designed for the top of a sail (ordered it from England), and had a pocket made in the sail. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. I've been wearing an anti-turtling device for about six months, been hanging for about three weeks, take 8 grams of arginine, and just started (yesterday) wearing the silistretcher as a ADS. How do you fix Turtling syndrome? Removing scar tissue. Male Penis Extender Stretcher Vac Hanger Anti-turtling 6" Silicone Sleeve 1" $6. 99. Business, Economics, and Finance. 0″ and 1. This made it swell up and the sleeve was very difficult to roll off. If you aren't sure what I mean- with a lot of cages if you experience shrinkage or bend over/move in such a way that cause the penis to retreat into the body- you can find yourself no longer sitting inside your cage properly. Stretches are great. Special financing available. Advantages of Phalogenic Traction Wrapping Easy learn, easy to do. Whereas Gears of War has been a console franchise first and foremost since its inception, this game is a timed PC exclusive. My bullshit-o-meter goes off the scale when guys talk about devices like sleeves. Especially something like Dragon’s Gate with tight corridors, if I want the rewards, I have to push ahead with Marcus/Oswin/Hector. 375″ sleeves. Games & Quizzes; Games & Quizzes; Word of the Day; Grammar; Wordplay; Word Finder; Thesaurus; Join MWU; Shop; Books; Merch; Settings; My Words; Recents; Account; Log Out More. Chapters 11A and 15 come to mind. The game limiting my unit selection doesn’t feel good. There are numerous comfortable materials that can be used as wraps such as self-adhesive bandages, or anything with an elastic property. Common wisdom says “have the penis heal in an elongated state,” and most healing likely occurs at night. It’s comfortable to wear, as I don’t even need to remove it to urinate. I really liked using it and it definitely keeps the penis from turtling. $ 40 The Innerwear is a male-enhancement underwear and anti-turtling device. This amount of room will allow the penis to yield to the forces of retraction that occur when sitting as the pelvis shifts back with forward rotation of the hips. Measure along your shaft without including your penis head. Free Discreet. . They usually have side objectives and anti-turtling mechanics which are hard, but fair, such as reinforcements or villages. Starting Stats: 6. Stealth For Men is a company that has designed a "Stealth Underwear" which works as a anti turtling sleeve. The length on the 1. Ace wrap is tearing my skin off these days and I can't put myself through that almost everyday The first anti turtling sleeve we are going to look at is the TotalManShop version. Posts: 177. If anything, I feel more resentment for an anti-turtle that’s done poorly or asks too much. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. $35. First up, the site claims this gizmo prevents retraction, known in the biz as “turtling. The MC class requires the. The guy who created this method was obviously called Uncle Jim in the community, and the concept is seemingly to wrap your cock using something called ACE Bandage in order to maintain a larger flaccid state by keeping the penis in a bigger 'extended' state (minus. I was frustrated with using a bandage wrap. The other thing that has jumped out to me as a potential negative is the 4 skill vs 8 finisher slots. The Innerwear comfortably extends the penis to near erect length 24/7. This is exactly like doing cool-down exercises or stretches after doing a full-body, traditional workout to prevent cramps, and to ease into a resting state. Our Silicon Penis Sleeves for Hanging come in five sizes . 0″, 1. 25" (21cm). Mar 13, 2013. (Much of my defensive gameplay already eschews the "one main door being locked when danger threatens" approach, with various alternate vetting/killing corridors, and I have long been braced to officially adopt counter-sapper. 75" (20mm) up to 5" (500mm). 99. 15. The best anti-turtling sleeve in the market. Postage: US $6. Could maybe try strapping it across your waistline & see how that feels. An anti turtling sleeve is basically like an ADS/Hanger silicone sleeve that will keep your flaccid stretched out and train it to stay longer and help with recovery from whatever exercises you might be doing. I just couldn't justify spending that money every month if the product continued to breakdown. LazyStretcher. might produce an unbelievable combo of stretching and anti-turtling. Contact us: Total Man Coaching Pty Ltd. X-rays or other imaging tests of the kidneys or bladder to look at the structure of the urinary tract. 75" (20mm) up to 5" (500mm). Penis stretching for a bigger dick. 97. 5 inches), BPEL 18. The only way really to have your flaccid hang lower is to increase length in general which will increase flaccid length. Does anyone know if turtling is something you can “solve” by wearing a sleeve or wrap? Thank you. FG and GF might as well be chests, their purpose is not to kill, but to delay until the other team comes to fight you for their buff or gold. Staff member. The closed ended one prevented turtling because it keeps the glands from being retracted. It was essentially an antiturtling device, mild stretcher, sort of like StealthforMen, but instead of being anything tube like or silicone, it was this sort of web of fabric. Joined Jun 3, 2003 Messages 118,998. Curious if there is a anti turtling sleeve that everyone agrees is good or the best among the board. 95. Any method you choose will successfully stop you from turtleing. But the EUF are really good too. I’m a grower if that matters, so far I feel like I look longer flaccid all the time which is nice, not sure how being a grower will effect my overall gains and etc since not to many ppl mention being a grower vs showerI quit bedwars for a week because of the new…They're all pretty well done. Q: HELP the locking pin hole doesn’t align when the device is fully assembly! Speaking of asylums, meet the full-body straightjacket, er, cozy anti-masturbatory PJs, introduced to middle class Americans by a savvy Hungarian. 04-13-2022, 06:35 PM Big_Dick_Rick. The Innerwear is a male-enhancement underwear and anti-turtling device. 75 BPEL. We have 2 diameter sizes. They act as anti-turtling incentives to keep you moving. General Inquiries: Email: [email protected] PENIS SLEEVES AND CAPSThe SiliSleev anti-turtling penis sleeve keeps your penis stretched all-day comfortably in stealth to permanently increase. Phallosan forte will continuously use a traction force to pull your penis without any uncomfortable feeling at all and it will results in a bigger penis of yours. The deeper your mast goes, the more bouyancy is being overcome. So anti-retraction helps cemment the gains that you are getting via extender. Last edited by a. I was talking about guile specifically. 0 coins. Located in: Shenzhen, China. Trebuchets are anti-turtling weapons. Hello all, I am trying to remember/relocate a device I saw some time ago but cant for the life of me remember the name. I've never used one but around these parts, all I see are 1/2-gallon jugs. 5cms. Public opinion so far makes me believe. Measurements are taken from the internal diameter. tinytim. 25" Current Stats 6" NBPEL x 6" EG (Post 1st Round PMMA) My. Hisame has anti-turtling elements too, but luckily it's mitigated by those "waste" spaces that have high terrain costs and prevent the Faceless from killing him long enough for you to get some fliers in there. Atlanta. Many one-design classes require some provisions for mast flotation to help prevent turtling. $ 19. Hydrofoils - Hobie 14 / Hobie 16 $234. The Fatboy is probably my favorite unit in the game. 4" bpelx6. Yes, and not only after PE session, but at all. They do work well for anti turtling, but don't have a very long life. These include sealing the mast or providing positive flotation with foam or floats. I did put on my anti turtling sleeve afterwards. I wore one of the duro sleeves as an anti turtling sleeve while sleeping and it stretched out and wont grip me anymore for stretching Going to order some more sleeves . shiby916. And while it looks same as our sealing sleeve (for vacu-hanger), the composition is quite. 125″ and our new XL sleeve size 1. This is a discounted price which can only be found at Uvipe. Increase warm-up time: add more minutes of warming up before you start the penile exercises. Penis sleeves also eliminate fluid retention with penis pumps. LG, MOS, and Total Man all sell a very durable sleeve. Turtling is a gameplay style meaning, going for resources early, building alot of defences which nearly cover all threats and having big bases. For future use, I will be sure to squeeze the glans throughout the wear time to limit. Special heat lights, under-tank heaters, water heaters,. I asked you about yohimbine because yohimbine is an alpha blocker. BPEL 16, 16. The Fatboy is probably my favorite unit in the game. 3. A few devices have this type of accessory included, while others require you to purchase an aftermarket component to make it work. The ability to hold your block is useful for when you're trying to. I’m sure this is good medical advice from the point of view of. So why are you getting the same cages? Using a proprietary, made-to-measure system, the Evo creates a device fitted to you. The low enemy stats honestly work more as an anti-turtling incentive more than Mozu does, as I've never had even the slightest amount of trouble getting to her in time. GameStop Moderna Pfizer Johnson & Johnson AstraZeneca Walgreens Best Buy Novavax SpaceX Tesla. The anti-turtling feature of Stealth undergarment is another key attribute that allows users to avoid the retraction and shrinkage of the penis allowing users to maximize the potential of their penis size. Package of Two (2), 4 inch long, internal diameter 1. Turtling / Retraction. And FYI I also have a Baby Bob anti-turtling float that adds some weight to the lift. ago. Post subject: Anti pitch pole hydro foil. There's a fair amount of information about sleeves. I found that consistently doing lazy ass stretches/fowfers (where you stretch. And no doubt it's all on the route towards the anti-turtling measures the future game seems intended to go. 00. SiliSleev2 - Soft Anti-Turtling Silicone Penis Sleeves SILICONE PENIS SLEEVES AND CAPSThe SiliSleev anti-turtling penis sleeve keeps your penis stretched all-day comfortably in stealth to permanently increase your penis size. Meanwhile, 20S got double zapped to the bottom with. Check with Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine. Like the chaos they could bring and seems like a neat potential anti-turtling thing but they do look kinda ugly on the map and spawn constantly. Cutting it makes it less of a BIG doughnut which makes it less tight to put on. He said that the thin one with open end works as anti-turtling device and that the thick one with closed end is used for manual work (manual stretching) and won’t do much on its own, that is, keeping it on the penis without outside force (pulling with hand). "Turtling" is most common counter to rushes. Common wisdom says “have the penis heal in an elongated state,” and most healing likely occurs at night. Whilst the weather has been good here, I seem to not get any turtling due to anxiety - Damiana is known to help relax people also. This is a discounted price which can only be found at Uvipe. I had 20 umbrellas around my comm, some guy rammed in 50 SXX's above my comm, with advanced radars tanking. #21I had a little more luck with the Sabre Skin, but honestly the best anti-turtling method I have found is cohesive tape. Stealth For Men is a company that has designed a "Stealth Underwear" which works as a anti turtling sleeve. It's my understanding that they're used to prevent turtling outside of PE, including an All Day Stretch (ing) device, to maintain the penis at length. Don't waste your money. that changes the mast from being a proturtling torque of 146 ft-lb to a 183 ft-lb anti-turtling torque. $1997 ($3. 5 14. Mar10 8. Despite all of this, I still turtle quite often. He said that the thin one with open end works as anti-turtling device and that the thick one with closed end is used for manual work (manual stretching) and won’t do much on its own, that is, keeping it on the penis without outside force (pulling with hand). Phallosan has their own proprietary condoms which are a thinner material. ago. 00. If I pick up your sleeves soon, I will let you know how it works out. Once you break free from the tactics-focused mindset of most RTS games, Ashes of the Singularity is a challenging, engrossing, and cerebral exercise in strategy that has me mentally iterating on. It will be too. CryptoCurrently I hear two parties. com. Tuff Brandz Penis Vac Hanger Extender Stretcher . It is a fallacious argument, actually, your penis is not going to become shorter because it is in a shorter state for a while; sometimes it is better to leave it in that state, because it needs to recover and keeping on pushing is. Same reason traps and pathing are being redesigned to remove the ability to just lay tons of traps a dozen layers thick. RX Sleeve’s patented non-pinch harness system, also known as ‘The Grip’, sets our penis sleeves apart from the competition. Silicone ads sleeve or anti-turtle sleeve. Debating between the durosleeve and the silicap2. 5 lbs for 10 hours a week for 3 months. SiliSleev5 - Silicone Anti-Turtling Penis Sleeves SiliSleev5 is the perfect solution to keep your penis extended all day and night in stealth while you heal in that extended state. Curing a patient with turtle head requires a. It give me length and girth. It seems to counter my chronic turtling problem. 5 15 15. . I had 20 umbrellas around my comm, some guy rammed in 50 SXX's above my comm, with advanced radars tanking. Here is my thread about the ones I made and some padding for clamping. There’s going to be 4-6 hours of flaccidity each night, so I figure this could help by increasing my average flaccid length during that time. I was asking for anti turtling device. Once again, I dont recommend more than a couple hours of use at a time. 4" / 5. . This harness holds you in place, giving you both the peace of mind and the confidence you need to perform at your best. Choose from 99 different sizes as you not only boost your penis size, but also your self-confidence. If I pick up your sleeves soon, I will let you know how it works out. Over time, it trains your anatomy to remain extended even when soft. 30 minute sessions. They're all pretty well done. 5 lbs for 10 hours a week for 3 months. Whether or not a player turtles depends on certain factors, such as the stage of the game, and the civilization's bonuses. 125"meg. 4" / 5. . Its only been a couple days and I have already started seeing results. A good method to help you save money. Clamping, hanging, pumping, using an extender, and other penis devices. the medium was just to big I did my reading and asked Big Al for advice he gave me a website absilicone. to lose fat". Location. The anti turtle sleeve is said to condition the penis to stay in an elongated flaccid state permanently and I was wondering if that really works. Posted by u/[Deleted Account] - 37 votes and 174 comments255K subscribers in the bigdickproblems community. It's on an easily removable bracket that I had made up, I use it when conditions are dicey. So i recently went out and purchased 2 "What-a-Grip"s after searching for an anti turtling device here on these forums. Feb 23, 2019. Nov 5, 2019Business, Economics, and Finance. I am on the heavy side (225 lbs ish) and. As far as I’m concerned the Anti-Turtling Device is a smashing success. 50. But, Uvipe wants its customers to make. Joined Jun 3, 2003 Messages 4,178. I say this tentatively - If you're looking for an ADS it's probably better using a cheap leg strap. f) Fowfers in bed tonight (for further warm down and anti-turtling) NOTES: Still doing mixed pressure Jelqs, but I've noticed I'm doing more jelqs on the higher pressure side. ; You need a land area as well as a water area. Penis Enlargement ForumMain article: Illnesses Retraction of the head due to an introverted spine. Even better, the boat is extremely stable to start with and has several good anti-turtling details including a sealed (carbon) mast, foam in the top of the mainsail, and inboard cutouts in the. 1 inch), NBEG 14cm (5. SILICONE PENIS SLEEVES AND CAPSThe SiliSleev anti-turtling penis sleeve keeps your penis stretched all-day comfortably in stealth to permanently increase your penis size. Starting stats NBPEL 6" x EG 4. It’s an easy to chapter to turtle, and turtling works on every major part of the chapter until you reach Limstella. 4" bpelx6. Also,. May 31, 2022 @ 7:13pm. Company of Heroes 1 (never really got into 2 so I don't know if it applies as much to it) is a rare kind of RTS that has both turtling and anti-turtling measures, since it allows you to build field fortifications, machine guns and slow big guns are a big deal, and it has lots of options to utilize static emplacements (British specialize in it. did i mention that i had to fight. i had a problem keeping my dick hard and even tho this is an anti-turtling. I'll admit it's easier to turtle with Guile than the other character, but zoning isn't easy. Anti-turtling is oftentimes a good thing, but I wouldn’t go overboard with it. One which is saying that clingers, c4, miniguns and other anti-turtling weapons are necessary as they are the only…Would one of the anti-turtling sleeves like the stealth help fix this issue? Big Al Administrator, Editor, Male Enhancement Coach. This one's trending. Free Discreet Shipping | Authorized. It can make it difficult to re-align for the purpose of peeing and. 125"meg. Luckily for us, Fortnite and PUBG had recently made famous a much better anti-turtling mechanic: The Storm. You are going to want to source a sleeve that is made with a more durable compound. From the remaining field, chapter 21's scale and epicness has won it third place overall with 20 points. Haven't tried it out yet, but we'll see. My NBP stretched flaccid length is about 6. 5". 50 Buy It Now Add to cart Add to watchlist This one's. Discussion, memes, stories, and advice about Big Dick Problems. Using a rubber band to do the same is tricky, because of circulation loss. Would you recommend the silicap2 for an all day anti turtling sleeve? I've busted a silisleeve5 and a silisleeve pro, so far. 356 votes, 253 comments. See details. 375"bpel x 6. Stealth for men 2 years 1 month ago #1308705399. Over time this helps train your flaccid to hang longer,. Measurements are taken from the internal diameter. instead of the spandex sleeves, might produce an unbelievable combo of stretching and anti-turtling. maybe he still has one of the optional masthead, anti-turtling devices that O'DAY offered in the early 1970's. Greater bone shield at 120 gives you t60, you can extend with turtling perk on a leg armour swap, you can extend with the POF perk, and if it's for zuk you probably won't have conjures up, and if you do. 30)SpeedPAK Standard | See details. The lead wire expands as needed but provides enough grip to prevent slippage. Tuff Brandz Penis Vac Hanger Extender Stretcher . Stealth Innerwear Is A 3-in-1 Bulge Enhancer, Extension Trainer And Anti-turtling Device . The Fatboy is probably my favorite unit in the game. I have got my idea. com. The tank must be at least 40 gallons. Th. Aug 10, 2020 #17 JunQui said:Our premium penis sleeves are considered to be the best on the market, and they’re fully customizable to suit your particular needs. Penile atrophy or penis shrinkage is the decrease in the size of the male genitalia. My wife enjoys going to nude pool parties, and I. The SIliCap2 is pre-vented to release trapped air inside the cap when applying and using. 375″. I died almost instantly after they entered my planet. The best durometer softness for ADS and anti-turtle sleeves is between #7 - #10 on the durometer scale. Granted the stealth is $40 it seems to take the place of an ADS type stretch, so maybe for more passive longer time kind of length gains or at least training to prevent turtling. If that is your concern, the majority opinion here is never let it turtle. They also need invisible UVB rays that the sun emits to help metabolize important things like calcium. Second pick has a HUGE advantage, respawn timers favor the losing team, and red bull tm buff isn't good for anything except for deactivating the structure. Starting stats:- Dec11th2008 7. I had 20 umbrellas around my comm, some guy rammed in 50 SXX's above my comm, with advanced radars tanking. The shrinkage is mostly temporary, however, can be permanent in. 2cm. Personally, I’ve never held too much resentment for lack of an anti-turtle. It works good as an anti-turtling device. Penis sleeves also eliminate fluid retention with penis pumps. CryptoTurtling. I like the idea of the silicone rim on the full sleeve to act as a catch point for an extender. An excessive amount of force must be applied using an anti-turtling device. Source: Torn Banner Studios (Image credit: Source: Torn Banner Studios). To measure girth: Once again, fully extend your penis to a comfortable stretch. Started 3/11/2019 - 5. Fire Emblem is a fantasy…Hi. It is a principal object of the present invention to use the latter approach to provide an "anti-turtling" capability for small sailboats. There’s a newbie routine on here somewhere, I suggest you do it for 3 months then take it from there. $ 19. My penis get very very little fluid build up after 10 hours of it. The idea that turtling harms gains is kinda the reciprocal: if it grows when lengthened, it shrinks when turtling. This is especially true if you are constantly moving from a standing to seated position and visa versa. Can't hang as long as I want due to schedule, but hoping the combo of hanging 2-3 times a week and then using the ADS the rest of the days will help Now, this is where I disagree with Doc.